Passion Over Paychecks: Starting Strong in Public Defense

Kyle McEntee:

We're joined today by Victoria Nauman, a deputy state public defender in Denver, Colorado. Victoria, you came into law school after three years of teaching through Teach for America. You knew that you wanted to represent underserved individuals, but not exactly how you would do it. What kind of jobs were you considering?

Victoria Nauman:

I was considering public defense. That was something that was in the back of my mind. I was also considering working in special education law, child advocacy, or immigration law. As you mentioned, I was a teacher in Baltimore City Public Schools for three years, and I was an English for Speakers of Other Languages teacher. That passion for my students kind of translated into my interests when I began law school.

Kyle McEntee:

Did you have any idea how heavy that stuff was from that experience?

Victoria Nauman:

Oh yeah. Being a teacher, you are also a therapist. You are also a social worker. You wear a lot of hats in that role. I definitely had an idea of what I was getting myself into. Criminal law I think is also just another realm of its own, but I figured that out pretty quickly.

Kyle McEntee:

So clearly kind of the weight of it is attractive to you. What else about public defense made you feel like, yeah, this is for me?

Victoria Nauman:

Working with my clients, I am an extrovert. I think in my last semester of law school, I took Law Firm Leadership because I needed two pass failed credits to graduate. They had us take a personality test and they had us line up across the room according to our results. And for one of the metrics, it was how extroverted are you? I was 92nd percentile. I was all the way at the end of the room. I love people. I love interacting with people. I talk to my clients every single day and having a client-facing job is really important to me.

Kyle McEntee:

Before we started recording, you mentioned that you didn't expect to spend your 20s in jail. And you're not technically in jail, right? But you're spending a lot of time with your clients in jail. How do you find that you relate to your clients even though you're not in a similar position?

Victoria Nauman:

It's something that I feel like I have to constantly check myself on. And the truth is, I can't. I grew up in a fairly stable home. I had opportunities to get a higher education. I was the first in my family to do so, but at the end of the day, especially as a public defender where my clients entirely come from underserved communities, I can't relate to what they've been through. I can understand and I can empathize, but I don't try to relate because that would make it very disingenuine.

Kyle McEntee:

So relating to people through shared experiences, one way to build trust, but there are other ways to build trust. What are some of the tactics you're using to build that trust with these clients who are putting their livelihood in your hand?

Victoria Nauman:

Listening, making sure that I hear them out and validate their feelings. A lot of my clients can be angry and, rightfully so. Angry at the system. If they want to take out their anger on me, oftentimes I'm okay with that. As I said, I was an elementary school teacher. I have a lot of patience. So, spending time speaking with them is also really helpful to work on building relationships. It's hard when you have a caseload of 150, but you do what you can with the time that you have.

Kyle McEntee:

As a public defender, you're doing trial work, but going back to law school during your second summer, you were actually doing something a little different. You were an appellate intern with the Federal Public Defender's Office for the Districts of Colorado and Wyoming. Was that experience vastly different or is it kind of the same?

Victoria Nauman:

Extremely different. Even though I was in a public defender's office, appellate work and trial work, I would say, are two completely different pieces of the puzzle. I think having an understanding of appellate work and the process and procedure is incredibly important. I think it helped me understand issues tha,t while I'm litigating in trial, I know are important to raise. Or for non-lawyer folk, everything that we do during trial is recorded and is on a record. And oftentimes I will make longer-winded records during trial that help.

If I lose, I know that could be something that could potentially bring us back for a second shot at the trial or overturn their verdict. And so I think it gave me a lot of perspective. However, appellate work is very much at your desk doing research. You do some oral advocacy, but not a ton. As a trial attorney, I am constantly on my feet in court litigating issues. There's a lot more hustle and bustle going on.

Kyle McEntee:

To put this in a little context for listeners, for those who are not familiar. So at the trial court, of course, that's what you see on TV most often. That's the, you're in front of a jury, you're presenting your case. In your case, it's you don't have the evidence, state, to put my client in jail, to show that they violated some criminal statute. Gets to the appellate level and you're appealing, if you're the public defender, you're appealing the verdict or you're appealing a ruling. So can you talk a little bit more about what that work looked like for you as an intern?

Victoria Nauman:

Yes. So I interned for the State of Colorado there in the 10th Circuit. I helped appellate attorneys who were appointed on cases that had lost in trial in the trial courts. I would help them draft their briefs for appeal. So oftentimes when you are appealing a case, you file a really long brief where you would point out all of the issues. I worked a lot on sentencing reform, researching basically overturning sentences that were considered substantively unreasonable.

And so federal sentencing is a little bit different than state sentencing—very strict mandatory guidelines for federal sentencing. So I did a lot of research on basically compiling information on cases where an appellate judge or appellate panel of judges actually looked over a sentence and said, this is substantively unreasonable. There are actual issues, they deserve to be given a shorter sentence.

The 10th Circuit did not have any cases at that point where a sentence had been overturned for being substantively unreasonable. So that was something that an attorney in my office was looking into litigating. And I was at my desk a lot. I was doing a lot of research. I did get to go see oral argument on the 10th Circuit, which was amazing to be able to go sit in and witness. The 10th Circuit building is beautiful here in downtown Denver. And so it was a really cool experience, very different than what I do, but it was good to gain that.

Kyle McEntee:

Yeah, I feel like appellate work can be much more formal. And some of it might be because trial courts are, they're driven by the law, substantively, of course, but it's very much driven by the facts. And once you get to the appellate level, it's really driven by the nuances of the law and was the law properly applied? Is that what the law should be or should not be? And litigating that. And so you end up with smaller caseloads, slightly smaller offices, fewer opportunities, but then you get down to the federal district level or the state district level. And of course there's crime abound and people in need of that representation because, constitutionally we are required as a country to provide that representation, even if they can't afford a lawyer. So can you talk a little bit more about what state court is like for you, that hustle and bustle?

Victoria Nauman:

So I started off in misdemeanor court where we had caseloads of about 150 and it was very fast paced. I would meet a lot of clients. A lot of times their cases would turn over quickly. Some clients would stick with me longer, but I went from only focusing on a few cases, a select few, to having a lot on my plate. A lot of clients, a lot of different people to be in contact with, multiple District Attorneys, a lot of moving parts. And I think organizationally it just looked different.

Like I had to have a lot more organization skills to do that versus my appellate internship. It was interesting because in my appellate internship, I really had to focus on discipline and sitting down and like forcing myself, I'm gonna research these issues, I'm gonna get this, this, and this done today. Whereas at the state level, at the trial level, it was more so like how much stuff can I fit into one day? It just feels different.

Kyle McEntee:

And I imagine it also feels differently because now you have the pressure of these are your clients. You're not working under someone else's license.

Victoria Nauman:

Oh yeah. So for misdemeanor cases, at least in Colorado, for most cases you're looking at up to 364 days in jail. Not all cases, some are only up to 120, some are up to two years, but for the most part, most cases you deal with are up to a year in jail. And that is a lot of pressure for some people who it's their first time encountering the criminal legal system. And that's a lot and that's scary. For others not as much, but that's why you work with each individual client.

Kyle McEntee:

So talk about how that's scary for you. What is it that makes you worry so much?

Victoria Nauman:

I personally never want to be the reason why someone does not go home to their family at the end of the day. And that's a lot of pressure where my actions have repercussions and the amount of advocacy that I give, which I try to go 100% for every single client, but that could have serious implications on my client's lives or mistakes that I make at trial that could have an impact. And so it's a lot of pressure to be thorough with the work that you do, plus also efficient to be able to do it for as many people as our caseloads are at.

Kyle McEntee:

So ultimately a lot of the people you're representing, many of them probably did the crime. And just because they end up going to jail doesn't mean that you're the cause of them going to jail. How do you talk yourself through not blaming yourself unnecessarily?

Victoria Nauman:

I think it depends. It's very case specific. There are some clients that I have who take a plea offer because they understand that going to trial would result in probably harsher sentencing than if they were to take a plea offer, right? And at the end of the day, we could go to trial, but it's not a good case for a trial. In other circumstances, like I have clients who I'm convinced that they are innocent. And those cases are the ones that I lose more sleep over at night.

But at the end of the day, I think it's just knowing that I'm trying to do the best that I can by my clients. And working through that, obviously self-care is a huge component and a huge balance that I'm still actively learning and working on to try to be able to shut my brain off at the end of the day. But I think there's definitely some clients, in some cases that stick with me a little bit more than others.

Kyle McEntee:

One thing you implied in your answer just there is that sometimes you do think your clients are guilty, and yet you're still giving 100%. How do you come to terms with that? Or is that just what you signed up for and you knew that going in and that part of the transition actually wasn't very difficult?

Victoria Nauman:

I would say that is something that's easier for me. I'm a true public defender in that regard. Like you mentioned earlier, being a public defender is kind of a rare job where in the United States Constitution and Supreme Court precedent, I have a constitutionally protected job. And if you are going to have a criminal conviction on your record, potentially face jail time, the People need to be able to prove that against you. And I think it's important to do what we call holding them to their burden. And I'm happy to do that for every client because the consequences are, even for a misdemeanor, a year's a long time.

And I mean, I can go on and on about America's incarceration system and how awful being in jail is, but it's something that I don't take lightly for my clients, even if their case is not the best.

Kyle McEntee:

So in Colorado, is it a misdemeanor that carries jail time that causes a requirement of representation or at least the opportunity for representation? Or is it a felony as in the federal system?

Victoria Nauman:

Any case that carries jail time, you are entitled to an attorney.

Kyle McEntee:

Let's talk a little bit about the trial advocacy that you're doing. So not everything you do is spending time writing or preparing for your remarks. Sometimes you're just out in front of the judge making your arguments. And in fact, you probably do that quite a bit. What is that like? And is it what you expected?

Victoria Nauman:

It's actually interesting because I think advocacy is not necessarily what people have in their brains as jury trials, where you're in front of a jury presenting evidence. A lot of the work we do is time in court leading up to that point. And so basically every week I have what's called docket where I just have like routine settings for my client's cases and I'm in front of the judge and no jury present. And a lot of that is more on your feet. I try to prepare as much as I can for docket by reaching out to my clients before, if I can, but that is a lot more quick thinking on your feet, full courtroom, hustle and bustle, you're moving through. That is very different than what people see in a jury trial.

I've done seven jury trials so far. That definitely takes a lot more preparation. There's certain things you can do on your feet, but I think for me, at least as a newer attorney, it's still helpful to slow down, think through my cross examinations and my openings and not do those as much on the fly. Even though as the defense, a lot of what we do is responsive to what comes out when the prosecution presents their evidence, it's very different than what you see on TV in terms of when you think about like being a trial lawyer. There's a lot of prep work and time in court that leads up to actually getting to that point. And to be frank, like 95% of cases resolve before you even get to a jury trial. So a lot of my cases will go away one way or another before then.

Kyle McEntee:

So you took some consequential, affirmative steps to becoming a public defender in part because you only applied for one job while in law school for after graduation. So you were obviously set on this path. Have you had any regrets so far?

Victoria Nauman:

No, I really wanted to come to Colorado's public defender system, in part because I wanted to live in Colorado, in part because the system here is phenomenal. The training that we get, because it's a statewide system, there's a lot of resources for training. I am originally from the West Coast, so I wanted to be closer to home. And as I mentioned, I was a teacher. I really wanted to work in juvenile public defense and with youth.

I was very fortunate that I got placed in the Denver trial office. I love my office. And within my first year, a spot opened up in the juvenile division and I went really hard for it. I probably annoyed my office head a little bit too much about it, but they gave it to me. And I ended up doing the litigation work, which is exactly where I wanna be.

And so it's kind of weird being at a point now where I'm very happy doing what I'm doing and very comfortable doing what I'm doing. And I'm not, like in law school where I was constantly working and trying to achieve the next thing and trying to get this certain grade and then trying to pass the bar exam.

You know, I’m kind of am at a point where this is great. So I got very lucky in that regard, I would say. I do have some friends who have changed jobs since starting law school or starting post-grad life, which is totally fine, their journey, like they're figuring it out. But I've been very happy with where I ended up and how it all shook out.

Kyle McEntee:

In some sense, you did your internships backwards, right? You started at the appellate before you moved to the trial level. What were some of the big surprises with that?

Victoria Nauman:

I think the amount of autonomy that I have, that was very shocking. I came into my job never doing a certified public defender internship. And that's something that I didn't necessarily realize so many people do before becoming a public defender. And I would highly, highly encourage not doing what I did and doing your internships backwards and getting experience on the record in court as a 2L, as a 3L. I think externing is really important or doing something where you can be on the record. I was surprised, I kind of felt a little bit behind in that regard.

Kyle McEntee:

How long did it take until you didn't feel so far behind your peers?

Victoria Nauman:

I still get that imposter syndrome sometimes. I started my job in October of 2023. I would say it took until after the holidays to where I felt comfortable walking into the courtroom feeling like I knew what was going on with not everything in my caseload, but like I had a good grasp on my caseload and starting to really get into like the meat of doing jury trials, doing motions hearings, that took probably three or four months.

I'm lucky because we have a very close office. I have a lot of people who I can go to for help, but I have never tried to pretend that I am the smartest person in the room. I appreciate being able to learn from the people around me.

Kyle McEntee:

What I'm hearing from you is you tend to be pretty forgiving of yourself. And with that, you're willing to go and learn, but you still have clients whose lives depend on you. You still have a judge who is presiding over the courtroom. Have you found the judges and your clients to be as forgiving of you as you are of yourself?

Victoria Nauman:

It depends on the judge. It depends on the client. Some are forgiving, some you let it roll off and you go on to the next thing the next day.

Kyle McEntee:

When you're having a judge who's giving you a hard time, do you try to get some time with them in chambers to discuss it out of view of everyone else?

Victoria Nauman:

I've been pretty lucky with my judges, especially now I'm in the juvenile division. Denver has its own juvenile bench. It's been a very good environment to be in. Any issues that we have had, our supervisors have actually usually tried to step in, especially with younger attorneys and their relationships with judges, if any issues do arise. It's been pretty minimal. I think our biggest issue has been how late we stay for jury trials. But other than that, it's been pretty good.

Kyle McEntee:

So you clearly have a pretty supportive office full of supportive colleagues. What kind of guidance from those colleagues was most valuable to you?

Victoria Nauman:

I got very lucky where we have basically a group of attorneys in my office who have all had the same docket that I had when I came in and started as a new attorney. What a docket is, is basically your caseload. And for us, your caseload is entirely in front of the same judge, in a courtroom with the same DAs.

So when you begin, you get placed into a misdemeanor docket. And in that misdemeanor docket, there's the same two district attorneys, there's a docket partner that you have who's also from your office in that courtroom, and then there's the same judge. And so a docket will change hands, usually about once a year.

So basically a group of attorneys, there's about 10 of us now who've been with my docket or my docket partner, who is the other public defender in the courtroom with you. And they actually took us all out for, or me and my colleague who started, they took us out for coffee and essentially imparted wisdom, advice for working with this judge, advice for working with these district attorneys, advice for how to manage your time. And that was really, really helpful having someone who's essentially done it before me being willing to kind of coach me through that. And now one of my mentors is actually in the juvenile division with me and helped me with that transition as well. So I got very lucky.

Kyle McEntee:

I wanna talk a little bit about the relationships on that misdemeanor docket. So you've got the two DAs, you've got the presiding judge, you've got you and your partner public defender. It's like this little community and relationships matter. And I know if you watch TV, you see there can be a lot of animosity between the DA and the public defender, but it seems that it might be kind of hard to have that level of animosity when you are functioning in such a small community. What advice do they have for you on how to keep it professional, how to keep it collegial?

Victoria Nauman:

I think it is – the advice I was given, which is exactly what I would give is to be true to your own personal style. I know some attorneys who are very adversarial and that makes them really good at their job. They are really good at asking for what they want, demanding for what they want and getting what they want for their clients. I am not that person. I can be when I have to be. And sometimes there are situations where if I am advocating 110% for my client, I'm going to be adversarial because that is my job at the end of the day.

But I always had the mentality that you, let me make sure I'm using this expression right. You catch more flies with honey. That is more so natural to my personality is to be nice and kind and try to foster a relationship with someone. And I found what works for me better and makes it easy to communicate with my district attorneys and oftentimes get the offers I want is to be nicer and more collegial. And in part, I think that also ties into professionalism and being respectful. Like I said, I can be adversarial when I need to be and sometimes you have to be, but it works better for me and is more natural to who I am as a person when I am being kinder.

Kyle McEntee:

Are you consistently evaluating that stance? Have you considered, maybe I should be more adversarial to start and then try to be nice afterwards?

Victoria Nauman:

I think I usually evaluate it from the other way around. It's like, I will try to be nice and try to appeal to reason. And when that is not working, then that's when it's like, okay, we gotta go.

Kyle McEntee:

How do you hype yourself up for that one? That's not maybe your default mode.

Victoria Nauman:

I rely on my coworkers to be like, this is what's going on. Can I have some backup here? That is, like I said, not natural to my personality, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Kyle McEntee:

And it's good to have a bunch of tools in your arsenal. Being kind when it's appropriate, being stern when it's appropriate, going back and forth between the two based on the facts and the circumstances. And that's just being a good lawyer, right?

Victoria Nauman:

Yeah. And that's something law school, I feel like gives you the tools to be a lawyer. You're building tools in your toolkit, but that's something in practice that just takes time to develop.

Kyle McEntee:

So one of the things that people know about being a public defender from books, from TV and movies is that they're overworked and underpaid. Has it been your experience?

Victoria Nauman:

I will say, again, because I'm a true public defender, I will say any public defender is always underpaid. Just by the nature of work we do, we do really hard work. It's emotionally taxing. And public defenders, I think, deserve all of the love and support for that. And I also think it takes a certain kind of person to sign up for this job. And I, at least having done public defender internships before, wasn't naive to that. Like I at least had a fair understanding of what I was getting myself into. And I think, for me, I have found, I’ve been working on finding balance in the past year with that. So that's my vague answer.

Kyle McEntee:

I do think it's worth pointing out that it varies by state. The federal system is better funded for the most part than the state systems are. But again, it does vary by state, whether how well funded they are for paying salaries, but also for training. And you did mention earlier in the episode that the Colorado statewide system does have better resources for training. And I think they do pay a little better than average and cost of living comes into that as well. Have you found that life isn't what you thought it was gonna be because of the pay, or is it maybe a little easier than you thought?

Victoria Nauman:

I think for a little bit of perspective, I'm making nearly double of what I was making as a Teach for America teacher, supporting myself. And so coming into this job, also based on the way I was raised too, I mean, my dad works at a nonprofit, my mom is a preschool teacher. I didn't come from a family with a ton of money. And so even in law school, that wasn't necessarily a priority to me. I've always prioritized wanting to be passionate about the work that I do and loving the job. And I find the pay is good. And I'm happy about that. I think the pay could definitely be better. But recently Colorado also had a drastic increase in our salaries. And so even people who were hired one or two years before me were paid a lot less their first year than I was. And so I'm very grateful for that. I think I could be paid more. But when I was at least applying to jobs, as you mentioned, I only applied to one job and got it. I was more focused on being passionate about the work that I do. And I do value that extensively that there are very few days where I wake up and I'm like, ugh, I don't wanna go to work today. Like it's a part of my life and I actually really enjoy it.

Kyle McEntee:

Well, the thing about pay is like, it is a function of hours, but it's also a function of expectations. And sometimes we have our own expectations set by friends who are at law firms making a lot more money, but also there's the additional context of how much debt we take on to go to law school. Was that a big factor for you? And is that part of kind of what you wrestle with, with saying that you wish you were paid more?

Victoria Nauman:

So I think there's two parts to that answer. Where most of my friends from law school are in big law in DC. Most of the people who I knew in law school were driven towards that track, which is great for them, but when they describe what they do for work, that is not something that speaks to my soul whatsoever. And so I think it's a function of, I never would personally want to pursue that path for myself. I was very, very passionate about public interest in law school. I was chair of our public service fund. I always was driven towards that kind of work anyways. And so I think that in part helps me justify it to myself.

I think the other side of the coin with debt is that I got lucky. Even though I was out of state at William & Mary, I was given a decent amount of scholarship money. I was deciding between William & Mary and another school that I had a full ride to, but still decided to go to William & Mary in part because I didn't know where I wanted to end up yet. And the other school that I had a full ride to was very much a local school. And so I thought it would give me more latitude there. So I did take on some debt. I didn't take on nearly as much as I could have.

I had a lot of scholarship help. I won a scholarship my 2L year called the Alvin Anderson Scholarship that was intended for public interest students. And then as chair of public service fund raised money for summer stipends to help students like me doing unpaid summer internships. So I didn't have to take on additional debt for the summers that I worked, but was not paid. And so I am hoping PSLF kicks in and I do my 10 years and I am good to go, but I'm not in a position where I'm forced out of my job because of my student debt, which is lucky.

Kyle McEntee:

Final question, you're early on in your career and you're not going to get everything right the first time. So how do you shake off a day when something doesn't go as expected?

Victoria Nauman:

I do a variety of things. I think number one is I have really good friends at my office and rely on them a lot. So we make sure when we have hard days and some days those can be really serious. Some days those can be something sad happening where a client goes away for years and we make sure to really support each other, lift each other up. We have our typical rotation of happy hour spots and really try to lean on each other in that regard. And I think a lot of it, too, with being able to shake things off, is having passions outside of this job.

This job is so easy to fall into and be passionate about and want to spend every waking moment doing my work because if I allowed myself to, I could. But having other things to look forward to at the end of the day, like going home to my dog or I'm a big runner, like going on a run or doing a workout class, like having other things that are important to me allow me to let go a little bit more.