Navigating Legal Career Crossroads: A Journey Through Law Firm Transitions

Katya Valasek:

We're joined today by Josh Offenharz, a partner at Kahana Feld, a large law firm with its sights on growth and prestige. We're going to talk about your practice today, but mostly I want to focus on your tale of transition. You started at Kahana Feld less than a month ago.

Although you graduated less than 10 years ago, you're on your sixth firm. So there's a story there, and it's one that I think will illustrate how many lawyers think about their decisions to take or leave positions. But let's start with you. Let's go back to when you're in law school. You're thinking about what you want your career to look like. How did you see your career unfolding in your first few years of practice?

Josh Offenharz:

So I came to law school, I wouldn't call it a full second career, but I spent several years working in government relations and public relations before I went back to law school. And I loved those experiences. And I had some sense of what I was trying to accomplish when I went to law school, which is to use those prior experiences to pivot into civil litigation as a skill, and then particularly working with businesses in business litigation and business law.

And so when I was in law school, I had sort of two ideas in mind.

The first was I knew I was going to have to pass the bar. And so I wanted to take bar classes so that I had that full immersion and experience with those content, because I knew they would be on the UBE, the bar when I finished.

And then my second goal was to take classes with practical skills. So whether that was legal writing, whether that was negotiation, whether that was trial advocacy, whether that was the volunteer mediation clinic, I was trying to build those tangible skills so that when I got out of law school and passed the bar, I was slightly more marketable than someone that may just have traditional academic credits and be very personable, but might be lacking some of those practical skills that attorneys are looking for.

Katya Valasek:

Your first job after graduation was doing insurance defense. A lot of people get their start in insurance defense, but it can have a high turnover rate due to pay and billable hour expectations. Was this first job always going to be a temporary stop for you?

Josh Offenharz:

No, I don't think I accepted my first offer with that in mind. I knew one of the named partners at the firm from work in the community. And so I viewed this as a great opportunity to work with an experienced attorney that I admired in order to get those legal skills.

It's very difficult to go from transactional work to litigation and trial work. It's much more of a natural progression to pivot the other direction. And so, again, I think I knew in my head that I wanted to be in litigation, that I wanted to try and get into the courtroom, and that that was something that I wanted to pursue.

And so when I was looking at opportunities, I was looking for that chance to get in the courtroom. And so insurance defense for me was something that offered that experience right away. And really at that first job, the way that I was thrown into the deep end by the managing partner, who was not my contact, was that he threw files at new attorneys, and it was based on the value of the insurance policy.

And his theory was, at certain levels, you can't really do harm, objectively speaking. And so we can really assess, do you have the skills? Do you have the mentality? Do you have the drive to do it or not? And then as they felt comfortable with me, and I felt comfortable with the material, the experience and the opportunities grew. I don't think I went in thinking that it would be the first stop, but I certainly knew from, I think, sort of the traditional theories of legal careers, you've got to give them at least a year, right? That was what everyone said. Your first job has to be at least a year, and in a perfect world, it was three. That was something that I did keep in mind, but I didn't go in looking to make a move quickly.

Katya Valasek:

You know, it's interesting. You say that you had a contact at the firm that you wanted to work with and learn from, but about two years into practice, you moved on to a different firm. What was it at that time that made you feel like you were ready for something different?

Josh Offenharz:

There are two parts to having a job as an attorney. You've got the sort of substantive work, right? Like, what is the legal work I'm doing? Is there enough of it? Am I growing? That sort of thing. But I think what so often gets overlooked until you're in it is the business side. We are, as attorneys, service providers. If you work for a law firm, you're working for a service industry, and we're providing legal service as our good.

And so both of those factors are always in play every day in all of the work that you do. And so some of the things you can control, you can control your effort, you can control your motivation, you can control the skills, you know, all of that. Some of the things are outside of your control.

So as far as the change that I made early in my career, it was, you know, one, like I said, I think I had this vision for my career where I would move on to business litigation, potentially complex commercial litigation, you know, sort of bigger, more complex type business disputes. And so I was approached by a moot court coach who I had had in law school who had taken a job to open an Arizona office for a regional law firm, and she was recruiting. And so when she approached myself and several other of our former team members, it was potentially the best of all possible worlds, right? It was, I really respect this, you know, experienced attorney. I've worked for her, with her in a different capacity. And so I knew there was some compatibility there. The type of work was where I wanted to move. And then, you know, you sort of get to the personal side, which is the compensation was better. So in that point, as a brand new attorney, it seemed like a natural progression that was a good opportunity. And I would say, under different circumstances, it very well might have been.

Katya Valasek:

Shortly after you started, the firm experienced an unexpected turn of events. Can you walk me through what that experience was?

Josh Offenharz:

So, you know, like I said, I was recruited. The idea was that the Arizona office would continue to grow, and that they had work and were bringing in work and better to have the attorney in place and fill their plate than it is to have too much work and have to go and find someone and then dump on them. So I came in, we had work, things were going well.

But right before I actually had my start date, the Phoenix and really the entire firm team lost an unexpected jury verdict after an eight or nine week jury trial in federal court. And it was one of those stunning decisions, jury read the verdict, they really thought that they were going to prevail.

And so when I came in, the office and certainly the firm was dealing with the aftermath of this unexpected loss. Obviously, there's a financial component, instead of gaining a windfall, you are now potentially on the hook for paying out a very large sum of money. There was now all of a sudden an appeal that was underway.

And I think the vibe, as they say, had shifted. And so that was an interesting experience, because here I am having nothing to do with the trial, but I'm seeing all of the fallout. And I've said, since that it was clear reading relationships and seeing interpersonal dynamics, that things were maybe not as healthy as they should have been and could have been.

And so having worked there, and again, I worked on separate work, it was great, it was sort of exactly what I wanted. But I was approached fairly early on. And they said, you know, look, we've got some questions here about the long term viability of the Arizona office at this point, this big decision was for a client that was a big anchor client, you know, we don't know what's going to happen.

And so they had the courtesy to say, sort of last in first out, you might want to start looking just in case. And so now all of a sudden, you're like, sort of disoriented, because you're like, okay, I made a decision thinking it would be a great move and pivot and put me along the path. And, you know, here I am having to do it again.

And in my mind, at that time, you sort of know, oh, no, I'm gonna have to look again. And now you've got two quick stops on the resume. And so you're mindful of that. And you really have to think about that. And you're starting to talk to recruiters, and you're taking interviews, and you have to address that. And so for me, that was where I sort of learned to speak about the side of law and what that means.

And it ended up working for me. But that was a skill I had to think about and develop. Because if I had just sort of played the, I'm a young attorney, and just focused on the work, I don't know that I would have been able to pivot like I did.

Katya Valasek:

And to be clear, that conversation they had with you wasn't a layoff. It was more of a courtesy conversation to give you some time to begin looking for your next opportunity. As you continued to work for them in whatever capacity they had.

Josh Offenharz:

Yeah, that's absolutely correct. So it was a courtesy like, hey, this thing coming down the road may occur. And we don't want you to get caught flat footed, because we know that we just recruited you. So they encouraged me to start looking. They said they'd be happy to say nice things. And if it happened, we would deal with it when it happened. And I think ultimately, the office didn't close right after I left, but it was within 12 months of me leaving as it was. So they did right by me, right? They very well could have said nothing and allowed it to happen naturally. And I would have been caught flat footed, but they gave me that head start.

Katya Valasek:

So you get the advance notice that the firm may be closing their Arizona office. So you had to move fast. And you're talking to recruiters, you're going on interviews. Your next stop was another medium-sized firm where you'd do some financial services litigation, as well as continue with the insurance defense. Tell me about what happened at this next stage of your career.

Josh Offenharz:

So at this point, I had seen two different models of firm. And I understood at least one major component, which is you've got to have the work on the table, because that's where the revenue generation comes in. And so in my mind, that was what I was looking for from my side in these interviews is, is there going to be stability?

Is there going to be enough work? I want to sit down and show you that I can do it and that I will do it and that it'll be a great relationship. I think what I also knew from the insurance defense, the first job is if that's a component of your business, there are doors that open that don't otherwise open.

For example, these are sometimes regional, sometimes national, sometimes international businesses. And so you can have work across multiple jurisdictions. And so I started looking beyond just the traditional medium sized local firm into this regional component, because again, what doors might open over time.

And so I was working with a particular recruiter who I got along well with. Candidly, he at one point worked at that same first firm that I had worked for before he became a recruiter. So again, there was this relationship.

And I came across a regional law firm out of Irvine, California, and they were growing their Arizona office and they needed an attorney that knew what they were doing that could handle litigation under supervision from an experienced attorney, but that either had the confidence or the experience to hit the ground running and to go with it. And so I really liked both parts of that. I liked the regional size of the firm for long term possibility.

I like this idea where we're going to give you work, you've got to run with it. We're not going to hold your hand. We're not going to necessarily babysit you. We need you to figure it out and to do it. That played very well with my personality. And, you know, I liked this idea of, you know, you're going to be part of something that's growing, something that's new, something that's forward thinking or forward looking. And so it was great. And we jumped on board and we ran with it.

Katya Valasek:

You said that as you were exiting the second firm, so the firm you were at right before the firm we're talking about right now, you began to understand the business side of legal practice. How did this new insight impact your approach to starting again at a firm where they're trying to develop a regional office? What did you do differently?

Josh Offenharz:

I think the first awakening that I had was at that first law firm. There was a CLE one day that was, I think they called it, you know, Legal Economics 101 or something. It was inside firm, you know, nothing too crazy.

But basically what the partners did was they created a little spreadsheet and it showed all of the financial components that go into hiring an associate. So obviously, insert the blank for an average salary, but then it's the associate's piece of the paralegal's salary, the associate's piece of the legal secretary's salary, the associate's piece of their office of materials and all of that. And so what that did was it basically showed me that you can't just multiply your hours by your rate and get this revenue number and think that you're making a lot of money and you're killing it and you should be paid more than you are.

What I realized very quickly was that in most cases, I guess at that point, two, three years, I had not been quote unquote profitable until very late in the year. And I was really, you know, working to break even for most of that time. And so what that triggered for me was when they give you your billable hours target, that's in a lot of cases, a break even or just above a break even point. And so what I knew in addition to the other experience I had was if you want to go above that, you're going to have to go beyond it in order to really make that difference on the business side, on the financial side.

Another piece of information or tip that I got from the first managing partner was, and he was sort of a crass guy. So I apologize to the audience if it sounds rude or thoughtless, but he basically said, you know, you don't want to wake up and be a 45 year old, 50 year old employee. So you need to think about marketing. You need to think about building your book of business because that's going to give you peace of mind. It's going to give you freedom. It's going to give you opportunity. And frankly, it's going to give you leverage.

Fast forward to where we are in the story, you know, now all of a sudden these things are playing in my head, which is, you know, how do I start getting my name out there? How do I start finding clients? How do I in the interim make a difference? Well, I can bill more hours. I can be more profitable. And so that all started to come together in this next step, which is, okay, I'm now about three, three plus years in, I get a sense that I'm doing and have the chops to do the work. Well, I like what we're doing, what comes next? And it's this piece of building blocks on top. So that's where I was.

Katya Valasek:

And is that what pushed you for your next move? Did you feel like you didn't have the opportunity to build that book of business where you were?

Josh Offenharz:

Ultimately? Yes. And so what happened at this regional law firm is business in other areas took the firm's eye off of growing in Arizona. So for example, there was an unexpected partner that passed away in Southern California. And so there was a scramble to, well, what do we do? We didn't expect that to happen. There were issues in a Northern California, Pacific Northwest office. And so, you know, this idea of, or the best laid plans, you know, reality had a say too. And so what I tell people is I could have absolutely stayed and I could have, you know, in my mind, it would have been treading water. And I don't know that there was anything wrong with that. So I don't want to give the impression that the firm was unhappy or, you know, anything like that. I could have done it, but it wasn't fulfilling for me. It wasn't getting me where I wanted to go, which is to be able to have this book, to be able to bring in new business, to be able to achieve. At that time, it was, you know, how do I get to a partnership? And I don't know that it would have happened in the timeframe that I wanted it to happen if I had stayed. And so that's when I sort of began looking.

Katya Valasek:

Your situation is such a clear example of, you know, that saying, life happens while you're busy making other plans. You were very deliberate about what you were looking for and what you wanted to achieve. And despite promises that are made or signs that seem to be like it's going to be a good fit, anything can happen at any time. And you have shown since the beginning of your career that you were just really good at picking up on information that is relevant and important to helping you succeed and also being sensitive to the surrounding opportunities and knowing when it's time to leave. People sometimes feel like they owe a firm something or they don't want to leave someone they're working with.

So you make your next move, this time to a slightly smaller firm than the other firms you've been working at to date. It was a father and son firm. So take me through your decision to come on board at this firm.

Josh Offenharz:

I would just say at this point, I had a family health issue that emerged. I had to give that some attention. And so I was trying to look elsewhere for a new opportunity. And so I knew very candidly at that point, I'm not going to be able to step into certain environments and succeed based on this sort of split in attention. And so at least initially, I did take just a general leave to accommodate those situations. But the reason that I joined this father and son law firm is because they did good work in the community. They had this reputation. They were very well-known litigators. But it was also known as a place where, if you prove yourself and you do that work, you're going to move on to something, right?

I mean, it's a family law firm. You're not going to break into the family in that way. And so it was sort of an eyes wide open moment where they were looking for somebody to help and do good legal work for their clients and the work that they brought in. I needed to sort of prove the stability, I would say, or the consistency element. And again, I really liked it. I learned a lot there. I had some wonderful opportunities in a wide variety of litigation areas. They did regulatory and administrative law. They did traditional civil litigation. They did complex commercial. They did sort of everything and anything in between. And so a lot of very cool one-off experiences that you can sort of put in your belt and bring back later if it's relevant.

And I could buy time, right? I could be selective with what came next. I could be deliberate with where I would end up. I didn't have to just necessarily feel like there was someone pushing me out or something that was dragging me forward. And so it was very beneficial for me in the sense of having the space to show I can sit somewhere, I can do the work. It's not about jumping, jumping, jumping, but also allowing me to plan and be deliberate for the next step.

Katya Valasek:

I think some people would struggle with the idea of looking to find a new job while there's some sort of personal issue going on in the background. Did you have to psych yourself up to sort of be honest as you were talking with this father-son firm about what was going on with your family and helping set expectations so that they would feel like you were delivering what you promised during the interview?

Josh Offenharz:

Yeah, I think so. So, you know, candidly, before I ended up taking the leave and changing, I thought I could compartmentalize, right? Lawyers will tell yourself, I can handle the stress. I can compartmentalize. You know, when I'm at work, it's work. And the truth is, especially I think as you get older, that's just less and less true, right? You sort of feel more comfortable in who you are. You move through life and you learn and you grow. And so what happened for me was I learned or realized that I really couldn't compartmentalize like that.

And so when I went to the father and son, you know, we had a talk about that and they were very understanding and, you know, it was able to work. But it was that first time where I brought that piece into the workplace in order to be candid, because I think up until then, you know, in my head, work is work, life is life. They don't necessarily intersect. You want to keep them separate when you're at work. You're a professional. Again, that compartmentalization.

And so once that wall started to come down, I didn't go full the other way, which is, you know, hey, you bring everything from home into work. I would not recommend that. But I certainly knew that this was something that they were going to have to be aware of, whether it was, you know, hey, there are days where I'm either going to have to come in late or leave a little early and I'll log in. But, you know, there are appointments or things like that, be that as it may. So that in and of itself was, I think, personal growth that I really think was the start of a personal journey that I'm very proud of and I think goes a long way as a separate topic.

Katya Valasek:

So you said that you joined this father-son firm with an eye on the fact that you knew that it would be a launching pad to whatever your next step was, which if I'm following your career, is going to be the firm that you just left. So you leave the small father and son firm, you move to another regional firm, still mid-sized, but on the upper edge with about 50 to 60 attorneys. Did you join that firm as a partner?

Josh Offenharz:

No, not at that moment. Candidly, I was recruited as part of a succession plan. They had a particular partner that during, at this point, it would have been COVID-ish, who during COVID had started his retirement plan, had moved from Arizona to another state. And so they were looking for somebody that could come in, that could work closely with him, with the team, and then over time, build into that role and continue to be there. And so I really liked that idea. Obviously, again, there's that career progression, there's that longevity.

Liked the work that the firm did as a whole, liked the work that partner did specifically. At this point, we haven't talked a lot about it, but I was starting to build a small but growing book of my own business. You, when you come out of law school, are going to be a brand new attorney. You're going to know and meet people that are new or young in their fields, in every field. And so one of the things that I was, I think, intersected with were young entrepreneurs. And so as I was going through and gaining legal skills, these entrepreneurs had legal problems and we would team up and solve these one-off things.

And they weren't always very big, but as their businesses grew, so did the problems. And so at that point in joining this most recent firm, I had these clients and the firm said, bring them, great. You can service them. We've got staff if you need it. We're not going to make you cut it. We're not going to put too much into it. I think they thought that was great. So in my mind, it was really that deliberate decision. You had the regional size firm, you had this longevity, succession, growth plan. It was a place where they were going to let me grow my book of business. They didn't have a problem with the amount of work. And it sort of seemed like, and really was for the most part, what I was looking for. So it was a great experience and opportunity.

Katya Valasek:

But you left. What was it about what was happening at that firm that let you know, maybe I should start looking for what's next?

Josh Offenharz:

I was not actively looking. I accepted a phone call from an unknown number one day, and it was someone from my current firm and they wanted to talk. And I think in that day, in that moment, I was open to listening. We chatted about where I was. We chatted about what I was doing. We chatted about some different ideas. And I don't think I thought a lot of it, hung up the phone and went on with life. They called back and they were really interested. And we started having this conversation.

And again, I really didn't think a lot was going to come from it, but we kept talking and they showed more and more interest. And so it got to the point where it was like, okay, wait, this is something. And if what they put on paper in an offer materializes and what they're sort of throwing around in these calls, I'm going to have to really consider it because it was just a step forward in a way that I just didn't expect.

And then obviously when that offer came on paper, it was something that I ultimately said yes to. So there was something there. But that was a really hard decision because I had built a team. I was part of something. That partner had sort of extended that succession window. So I think maybe that made it a little easier because something that was supposed to happen was now this question mark of when is this timeline?

So that's probably why I took the call if I was sort of psychoanalyzing myself. But again, you have this idea of where you want to go and you see how you want to get there. I think you've got to be open to what the universe throws your way. And so that's really what it was because I very easily could have said, reject the call. I very easily could have said thanks, but no thanks. And we would potentially be having this conversation at the last firm and I would be singing its praises. So I really don't necessarily have anything negative to say about that.

Katya Valasek:

So a firm that is thinking about succession planning means that there's probably some older attorneys at the firm. What impact does that have on culture at the firm?

Josh Offenharz:

Quite a bit, actually. You're having this generational divide, right? You've got potentially, I mean, in some extreme cases, you might have a silent generation partner who's still around.

I would be shocked if they were still working, but it's possible. But you certainly have attorneys in their early mid-seventies that are still practicing, very much so attorneys that are going to be in their sixties and fifties and so on. And so you've got multiple generations of attorneys that all have different skills.

They all have different ways of doing things, and then they all have different priorities. And very often those things do and don't mix. So, for example, almost everywhere that I've been where there are attorneys that are baby boomers, they think you should be the first one in, the last one out.

And the only way to prove it is to be physically chained to your desk. Gen X attorneys and millennial attorneys and Gen Z attorneys and really anyone that's grown up with a laptop and certainly post COVID is like, what does it matter what computer screen I'm staring at all day if I'm billing my hours and getting the work done and the client's happy and we're winning our cases? This, that, or the other, it shouldn't matter. So those types of things come up.

The other area where I've found that it was an unexpected question mark is we, as I consider myself a millennial attorney, I find and think I would classify myself as very mindful and deliberate about what I post and put out there. But to the older attorneys, that was too much. And so you're having this back and forth where it's like, well, this is how people are engaging and they're marketing and they're putting themselves out there to, to be out there.

And you have these people that are still in charge that are saying, well, you know, it's bragging or it's egotistical or the work speaks for itself. It's not about you. And so, you know, you're trying to incorporate that feedback while also recognizing that they're really out of touch to be, you know, frank and that, you know, you have to move forward, but within the confines of what's allowed and it becomes very interesting.

Katya Valasek:

Okay, so we have caught up to present day. You are at a firm now that has growth as a metric of success. One of the founders came from a highly prestigious white shoe mega-firm, Gibson Dunn, with his and others’ sights on chasing the clout that comes with a mega firm's revenue and client roster.

And you as a lawyer are part of that growth and so is your book of business. So you said that at your last firm, you had a small book of business that you had developed. The previous firm was excited to have you bring it on. Did you take advantage of your previous employment to build that book or did that really sort of become a big priority for you when you transitioned to your current firm?

Josh Offenharz:

So I think my, my book has continued to grow over time. And so that has been exciting. Just like we move law firms as attorneys, you know, these institutional contacts are moving companies. Over time, good relationships and nurtured relationships, you know, sprout new fruit. So all of this is happening. And I think that, you know, one of the things that the current firm said was they were very interested in recruiting me for what they saw as their vision in Arizona.

And they said, you know, look, whatever you can bring would be great, but it wasn't a make-or-break situation. And so, I really viewed it as the cherry on top of this situation and making the move. But I also know that the new firm has some resources and some outlooks that I think are more beneficial to my clients and helpful to the things that they're trying to do.

And part of that is, I think the generational difference. This new firm is still trying to grow, still trying to develop. It still has its eye on tomorrow, as opposed to, we've made it to where we want to be, and we're sort of treading water, or we're in that phase where you don't want to rock the boat or whatever it may be.

They're in this growth and development phase, which is, I think, great. So, you know, those are all important things, maybe not to consider, you know, as an attorney, but to be mindful of, right? Do you want to be part of something that's growing, that's looking forward? Do you want to be something that's more focused on stability? Do you want to be focused on working somewhere that's, you know, very established and it just sort of is what it is? Or, as I started to experience before I left, are you in a situation where there are some questions about secession? There may be definitive plans, there may not be, and it's like, well, what happens if? And that's a stressful question mark.

Katya Valasek:

So you said that this firm approached you, which is absolutely flattering. And, you know, they're talking themselves up, they're talking about how much they want you. My guess is based on your career history, you wanted to make sure that this was going to be the right next step for you and potentially a longer stay than some of your other experiences. What was the vetting process like for you in terms of trying to understand whether you really wanted to join this new firm?

Josh Offenharz:

Yeah. I mean, it was extensive. I would say I did a lot, a lot of homework based on everything that I've gone through that we've sort of just touched on. You know, the first thing that I really dug into was, is there already the work? Are we going to have to nurture it and grow it and bring it in? How much is there for how many attorneys, right? Like what is that situation? And candidly, what was really funny is, you know, since I've been here, we know I've had some talks with the name partners and the recruiting partners, and we all sort of joke about it. But they were stunned that that was sort of the opening question was about like, is there enough work?

They just, to them, it was like, wait a second, what's going on here? We don't get it. But now that we've been through it and we talked about it and you can see from some of my story, then it made sense to them.

Okay, there's this part. You know, we talked about the book of business and the clients and the relationships and that became important. And they are very conscious of the culture that started when they were smaller. How do they maintain or develop that as they get larger? And they're still very considerate of the people that they bring in. And that was something where I've been on sort of both sides of good culture, less than great culture and everything in between.

And so I think that was very, very appealing. And so, you know, again, it was all of that put together was like, either these guys are the world's greatest salesmen, or this really is going to be a wonderful opportunity that should be my next step. And I think for me, the thing that got it across the finish line is because it was a national firm, I looked at some other offices and people that I had crossed paths with were there. And so I was able to call these other offices and say, hey, we've talked or worked on this before. What do you think? Give it to me straight. Without exception, everyone said, I wish I had made this decision or found them sooner. And so they were able to, again, ease some of those concerns.

But it's not without newness, so you're starting from the beginning, so you have to prove it. And so at the last firm, I was one of the top three billers in the entire firm. Every year I was there. I was in the Arizona office, number one, number two, every year I was there. That doesn't carry over. If you had experienced necessarily burnout, but you wanted to step back or slow down, well, now you've got to re-earn it. You've got to re-establish it. You've got to re-prove it. You can't just rest on those laurels. They don't know that. They're taking your word for it. That's part of what makes you an attractive candidate. But you've got to give that commitment. You've got to take that next step. And for me, one of that was moving from a partner role of working on a team and a client unit to managing the office. And so that's a new skill that requires expanding your worldview about thinking about things a little differently and is a new challenge in and of itself.

Katya Valasek:

So we've talked about culture from a number of different perspectives already, but I want to ask you about one other perspective. Over the course of your career, your life has changed. You have a family, your priorities shift. How have your life circumstances impacted what you're looking for in a firm's culture?

Josh Offenharz:

I think as you go through the phases of life, what you need from any job is going to change and grow and be different. Really early on in my career, it was work opportunity and obviously sort of maximizing compensation. I would say to an extent that never goes away, but all of a sudden healthcare becomes more important or can be more important. At a certain point, having the retirement option and starting to plan for that becomes important. At other phases, it's I want to buy a house. Is there compensation or a bonus or what is it that helps me get there?

I think you start to look holistically at the compensation as opposed to maybe one or two slices of it. I also think you start to look at longevity, sustainability, compatibility with your co-workers because these are people that you're spending considerable amounts of time with day to day, week in, week out. So that becomes something that you start being more aware of and more deliberate with and maybe I'll figure it out. I can work with anybody, et cetera, et cetera. I think the new thing that I'm still working on is I have two small kids. And so balancing that time of being a young father with being a working attorney, it's difficult.

I mean, it is a stress. It is hard. You've got to put in time in both of them. But at least what I found or the decision that I made is I sort of am stripping away some of the other stuff. And so you've got to find what's really important. Got to really find where you want to put your time and you've got to be okay letting go of the things that maybe you used to love to do or maybe used to be important, but that's part of the path in life.

And so I think right now, if my younger self saw me, he would roll his eyes and he would say, what are you doing? But I think across the board, I'm in a healthy place and maybe the healthiest place I've been to date. So life comes with changes and I've always known that. And part of it is being able to be okay with that.