Paige Sparks is an employee rights lawyer who specializes in discrimination claims. In this episode, Paige talks navigating the EEOC process for aggrieved current and former employees, generating clients through social media, and how she navigates her ADHD, a diagnosis she received a few years into practice. Through informational law videos and transparent looks into her life, Paige has garnered more than two million followers across TikTok and Instagram, which has both clear benefits and drawbacks. She also discusses her approach to caseload and cashflow management--each key for a contingency practice. Paige is a graduate of St. Louis University School of Law.
Transcript
Katya Valasek:
We're joined today by Paige Sparks, a plaintiff-side employment lawyer and legal influencer. Last count, you had 407,000 followers on Instagram and 1.8 million on TikTok. We'll get to how that impacts your personal and professional life in a second. But before we do, let's talk about your start. You did something somewhat unusual and started a law firm just three years into practice. How did you end up taking that plunge?
Paige Sparks:
It was terrifying to start my own law firm. And it's one of those things where you're never ready to take that leap. But what's the quote? Like, “if you don't do it when you're scared, you'll never do it.” So pretty much every big move I've ever done was out of desperation. I had no other option. I was at a really bad firm. I didn't like what was going on. I was interviewing. The places that wanted to hire me weren't a good fit. I didn't want to go into like corporate law and have billable hour requirements that would make me have no work-life balance or anything.
And so my mentor, I was begging her to let me work for her in family law, which I don't like family law. And she's like, the best thing she ever told me was no. She's like, as your friend, I can't let you do that. I know you would hate it. Go out on your own. And she kind of helped provide the resources and support. And it all just fell into line. I mean, it's a lot of work. It's not like it was easy to set up. But being told no gave me that push that I was like, okay, I have to do it.
Katya Valasek:
So you were only working for someone else for a very short time. How did you learn everything that you needed to know about running a firm, on top of everything you needed to know about your practice area?
Paige Sparks:
Well, the beauty of working somewhere that provided no support, and it wasn't a very good employer, is I learned how to do everything on the fly when I was working there. I pretty much had no support, no oversight, I had to figure it all out. And that was when, one day it occurred to me, I was like, why don't I just do this and keep all the attorney's fees and stuff. I'm doing all the work anyway. And so I actually learned how to do a lot of things still as a law clerk, because I worked there for like four or five years total. And so then the other little things like setting up a trust account, things like that. It's really not that difficult. I just Google it if I didn't know how.
Katya Valasek:
So that's interesting, because you early on in your career were turning to sources on the internet to help give you guidance. So let's talk about your social media presence. You make informational videos about the law. And when you do so you use all the right words to try to protect yourself. “I am not your lawyer.” “This is not legal advice.” “This is information only.” “You should talk to a lawyer.” What happens if you don't provide those disclaimers?
Paige Sparks:
I use all the disclaimers not only because we're required to by the rules, but also I got people watching out for me to make one mistake, like forget to include it in one video, and they send me nasty emails. When I was first starting, local lawyers, one of them sent me like a 40 page PowerPoint of how I was violating the rules of advertising if I didn't do things the way they were suggesting. So I include it. I follow the rule. I called our State Bar, the ethics hotline, and I said, this is what I'm doing. I'm putting this disclaimer and they gave me an informal opinion it was the equivalent of a legal blog. So after I got that, I just include that language and everything and not only to comply, but it's true. I'm just providing information as a starting point for people to where they can dig in and find someone local to help or look and do their own research.
Katya Valasek:
So when you got that PowerPoint, did it feel aggressive or did it feel helpful to you?
Paige Sparks:
It felt aggressive, probably because of the delivery. It was like a, “hey, girly, just sending this to you so no one reports you.” And acting like genuine concern. And I feel like there could be a better way to deliver that. But also I'm like a Petty Betty. So if you come in guns blazing like that, I'm going to bristle.
Katya Valasek:
Yeah, no, I sometimes it's hard to tell whether it's supportive or aggressive. What is it like having such a large following?
Paige Sparks:
It's pretty surreal to have a large social media following. And to be honest, I don't think about it most of the time. Like if I did, I would never put content out if I thought a million people could see me with no makeup and putting it on, and then kind of opening myself up to that feedback. So I try not to think about the numbers. Like when I do a video, I'm just talking to my best friend, Sarah, or I'm just talking like with you now in a more intimate setting. And then when the comments happen, or the views happen. Sometimes it does still like freak me out.
I'll be like, oh my gosh, I got 500,000 views of me doing my makeup. It's really cool. But it's also there's a lot of downside to it. I never knew until I was in the position like, it's constant exposure to people's opinions, whether you want them or not, that aren't even related, like my looks, what I'm wearing. Like I did a podcast a couple weeks ago, and everyone told me to burn my dress. I'm like, that's nice. So it's like constant feedback. Most of it's nice. I have a lot of great followers. We have a great community. But every once in a while, there's one that'll come in like that, that'll give me like an insecurity I didn't have before.
Katya Valasek:
So you're not thinking about the followers or the counts or the eyeballs when you're posting the content. Are you thinking about your followers when you're choosing content?
Paige Sparks:
There's like a psychology behind it. And I follow kind of a specific formula, like most of my videos will be like, “if your boss is doing this, then you need to know your rights at work.” And so using that you, you're talking to them directly, it helps prevent people from scrolling, and then watch most of your video or that's the hope, right. But I also really strive to demystify the law. I am not the most elegant speaker, I am not the most flowery attorney. And I'm just myself when I talk. And a lot of people like that, because I'm not saying Latin phrases, I'm using common terms that everyone can consume and understand. So I definitely keep that in mind while I'm doing videos because I want it to be easy to consume. That's the whole point.
Katya Valasek:
With this way of speaking, and with this way of sharing information, I'm sure there are people who see this and say, “Oh my gosh, I want Paige to represent me.” So what percentage of your clients come from social media?
Paige Sparks:
So actually, like 80% would be social media. And then I live in a small town in like a very close community. So I get a lot of word-of-mouth leads. But otherwise, it's all from social media. And it is really cool. I don't pay or do any advertising or marketing or anything at all.
And really blessed for that, that the videos take off like that.
Someone will schedule a consultation and call and I think they think it's just like a bait and switch. Like I do the videos, we get you in with another lawyer, and then you never hear or see from me. And so it's cool moments when I'm doing an intake with someone and they'll be like that starstruck. But just at the beginning, they're like, “Oh my gosh, your voice sounds the same as it does in the videos.” And I'm like, well, yeah, it's me.
Katya Valasek:
That must be a fun experience for you. And along those lines. So social media is actually a shortening of social media network. Have you always been such a networker with other things in your life?
Paige Sparks:
Yeah, I've always been a hustler. I had really expensive hobbies, like horseback riding and things. And so I know a little bit of everyone in every social circle. And I'm really proud of that. Like it's not easy to do, to infiltrate different friend groups and things. And I have a great network. And so before my social media started, I was getting a lot of leads from friends and family because you know, what's the joke you like, you never have to ask if someone's a lawyer because they'll tell you within five minutes of meeting them. And that was me because I was like, I need cases, I need leads. I kind of got my networking muscles started from talking with people and like doing face to face traditional. And that's just conveyed over into social media.
Katya Valasek:
I think that's so interesting because I think a lot of young attorneys really worry about either they're starting their own firm and how they're going to find clients, or there's some level of expectation at the firm that they're in of bringing in business. So I think it's so important what you just said, which is that you know people in your life, and that's the right place to start as you're trying to get connected with people who may need help. You don't need almost 2 million followers on TikTok.
Paige Sparks:
Yeah, you don't need a billboard. Using videos is the one way that you can really level the playing field as a new attorney if you're wanting to start it on your own because what you're saying is right, the biggest concern is getting clients or potential clients to come through the door. And it's it can be hard to drum up those leads. So my best advice is if you're a new attorney, and you think you want to start on your own, start vlogging your life in law school, start making that presence, getting yourself out there. Even when you're trying to get into law school, like people like the journey, they like to see the struggle, it's relatable. And you could literally have a following before you need it. And it'll just convey into clients in the future.
Katya Valasek:
Have any of your clients ever had an issue with your social media presence? Has anyone been concerned you would talk about their issues? Did that ever make anyone uncomfortable?
Paige Sparks:
I did have one client who told me they didn't like that. And so I of course didn't do it anymore. I included in my representation agreement, so they consent to it. But I'm never going to do something that makes a client unhappy. And I don't want to stress anyone out about that. But I will say most of my clients want me to talk about their case on social media. Usually, that's how they found me and they want their own video about their case, especially because most of the time, I don't let them talk about their case publicly just for their own interests. But it's something that I can say or if there's a message they want to get out.
Katya Valasek:
Well, if they're finding you through social media, then they understand what to expect. But with that volume of viewership, especially when you talk about the topics that you represent people on in your practice, you have to be inundated with inquiries. I cannot even imagine how many people reach out to you. How do you navigate that?
Paige Sparks:
So I have someone, Dana, she's my assistant. She's great. She handles basically all the intake. Also, we have kind of like hurdles set up because I do free consultations. And I learned very early on, when you're doing free consultations, you're going to get a lot of tire kickers, you're going to get a lot of people who just got mad at work that day and want to know their rights or if they have a case and then talk to me for an hour and then not want to do anything. So I have basically like hurdles, like they have to fill out my intake form. They have to do their homework and get me their documents and their pay stubs and the things that I asked for. And if they do all these things and kind of have a little skin in the game for their time, that's when we set up the consultation if they have something I can help them with. And then usually I don't have anyone that ghosts me or have any problems there because they've already invested that time, energy, and effort.
Katya Valasek:
How many new clients do you typically take on a month?
Paige Sparks:
I've really been dialing it back right now because I'm trying to have a better work-life balance. We could take as many as we wanted because there are that many leads, but I try to not take on more than like one or two a week just because I only have the mental capacity for so much.
Katya Valasek:
So someone does their homework, they get you all the information that you are looking for before the initial consultation, you meet with them. What sorts of things are you looking for when you're deciding whether you're going to take on a case or not?
Paige Sparks:
Most of what I'm looking for is if the potential client, first and foremost, if they have a claim, right? Like if they've been discriminated against or retaliated against and it's something I think I can help with. But now I look for much more than that because we have to also be compatible. When you're getting involved in litigation, you could have to interact with me for like three to four years if we take your case to trial. So I also look that it's a good fit and a good personality fit too.
Katya Valasek:
What about money?
Paige Sparks:
I actually don't have any criteria for taking cases on for what they're worth. I think that's a really bad way to weed out labor cases. I know a lot of lawyers will do that and they'll be like, I won't take someone that was making a minimum wage because their losy damages won't be that big. I never have a criteria like that for two reasons. The statutes I sue under, I get my attorney's fees when I win. So I don't care what their lost wages are if I have like $200,000 in attorney's fees, I can recover before the load star multiplier, which is when they can increase that if they did something really bad. So I don't have a way that I screen out. And I'll say if I did, I would have lost out on a lot of good cases that did resolve for six figures or around there if I would have screened them out based off of like minimum wage or something.
Katya Valasek:
So how do you get paid? Are you taking cases on contingency?
Paige Sparks:
I represent everyone on contingency. So that means I get a percentage of whatever I can recover for them and they pay no money up front. I front all costs and expenses. I take on all the risk. So usually that makes them feel a little better because I'm not going to do that unless I think we can recover, right? It's like playing poker all the time. But it works out for my clients because that's the last thing someone needs to do is come up with a $5,000 retainer when they just lost their job and they're wondering how they're going to pay their house payment. So that's why I don't charge for consultations.
Everything's on contingency. And I have a tiered contingency. So it just depends on like at what stage your case resolves at. And it starts at 40% for employment law because those cases are difficult. They're difficult to bring. It's an uphill battle when we start. And the client agrees to that beforehand with the representation agreement.
Katya Valasek:
So you're floating all the expenses while you're doing the initial work on behalf of your clients. Where do you get the money to do that? And more importantly, where did you get the money when you first started?
Paige Sparks:
When I first started, I had saved up about $20,000. That way I knew I could float expenses on a handful of cases that I took with me from my old firm and we could just hit the ground running and go. It is a little stressful sometimes. You've got to have enough cases in the hopper that are settling and starting and you're trying... They're at all different phases all the time and they are all paying for each other. Once you have success with them, we put all the money back in the business. That way we can front those expenses. We're never going to take out a line of credit. That just scares the hell out of me when people do that, especially lawyers. If you're starting to take out a line of credit, that is a slippery slope and you can start getting into trouble if you're not covering those expenses for your clients. We're very fortunate with all the leads and the caseload I have. We do everything in-house. All the cases, I just reinvest back into the business with whatever I recover.
Katya Valasek:
With your employment practice, you represent employees who are alleging discrimination or retaliation from their employers. How do you determine whether their claim has enough merit for you to take the case?
Paige Sparks:
We're always looking for unlawful discrimination in violation of a protected class. Age between 40 and 69 years old, if there's sex discrimination, religious discrimination, gender discrimination. Then if they complain or report discrimination and then something happens to them afterward, that's really all I need to get started. If it has legs, we file with the EEOC and usually that's where things will sink or swim because they have to respond and provide a defense to the allegation. Sometimes that's where I'll learn of things for the first time, maybe if a client hasn't told me everything. Or, conversely, that's when I'm like, they don't have anything to say for themselves. My client's right. Then sometimes that's where the case gets strengthened. Because filing with the EEOC is free, it's very low risk to just spend a little bit of time to find that out as long as it has that timeline of discrimination or retaliation.
Katya Valasek:
I just want to make sure that I'm filing things away in the right places. EEOC is a federal claim?
Paige Sparks:
Yes. The EEOC is the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. That's where you can file any discrimination or retaliation claims. Then most states have their own state agency and they'll get dual filed with each other.
Katya Valasek:
Because you have state and federal opportunities to file a case, when you are evaluating a case, are you simultaneously evaluating the merits for state and federal level? Or do you start with the EEOC first, since it sounds like that's where you typically begin?
Paige Sparks:
Correct. I start everything with the EEOC for the most part and I'll file with them because the federal burden of proof is pretty much the same for our state law right now. Sometimes the state judges will be a little less reluctant to kick things out on summary judgment, which is whenever the case gets to a certain stage and we finished all the depositions and discovery and they see if there's a dispute of the facts and if we get to go to trial or not.
We have a much higher rate of getting dismissed on summary judgment at the federal cases. What I usually do is file with the EEOC, start at the federal case. They also provide a free mediation. Then after that, whenever the case closes, if they issue the notice of right to sue, I also request it from the state agency so I can file the claim in state court and try to keep it there so we don't run into those summary judgment issues.
Katya Valasek:
Would you ever skip filing with the EEOC and go straight to filing a state lawsuit or is there nothing lost with that EEOC filing?
Paige Sparks:
If you're going to sue for discrimination, you have to file with the EEOC. It's an administrative prerequisite before you can file the lawsuit. Like, Missouri has a whistleblower statute. You don't file with the EEOC for that. That could be straight to lawsuit, but anything that's discrimination or retaliation has to go through the EEOC before you get the right to file a lawsuit on the claim. Otherwise, it'll just get dismissed because you didn't satisfy the administrative prerequisites.
Katya Valasek:
It's interesting that the EEOC process includes free mediation. Is this a point at which many of your cases get resolved?
Paige Sparks:
We have a lot of success at the EEOC mediation level. It's a free mediation. It's confidential, so usually both parties have incentive to at least negotiate and see what's there. I don't have a statistic of how it goes because it really just depends on each case, but I will say I agree to mediate every case in the EEOC because at least I know what the claims are and the responses are even if it's not successful. We also have success with continuing those negotiations. Even if the mediation's not successful, we can continue those negotiations up to the notice of right to sue being issued before I can file a lawsuit. So it’s kind of like the runway of settlements for me.
Katya Valasek:
What is the notice of right to sue and what does that mean?
Paige Sparks:
Whenever the EEOC is going to close out of charge, usually it'll be for if you request it. If you're like, I want to file this lawsuit, you can request your own notice and they'll issue it pretty quickly. Or if they've finished their investigation, which means we file the charge, the company responds. I respond to what they provided. The EEOC, unless the company admits it and says, “yes, we discriminated against this person,” usually they recommend closing out the charge because they didn't find cause that the discrimination occurred.
When that happens, the investigator will contact you and say, “hey, we're going to close this out. Would you rather request your own notice or have this on your record basically that we didn't think there were enough facts there?” Of course, we always request it just so that keeps the file clean. Then after that, we get the lawsuit to file. Once you get your notice of right to sue, you have only 90 days to file a lawsuit. Then once that 90 day passes, you can't file a lawsuit anymore. That's what a lot of people misunderstand is they think they get this notice and now they can go find a lawyer. I always tell people, try to get a lawyer before they issue that notice because it's really hard to find someone to take it on once that 90 day deadline is ticking.
Katya Valasek:
You mentioned that filing an EEOC claim is important to the state filing process. Is state law in any way relevant to EEOC claims?
Paige Sparks:
The state law doesn't apply for the EEOC claims. They kind of only want to hear federal law because that's how they're viewing the case. Before in Missouri, where I'm at, we used to have a lower burden of proof in Missouri for the motivating factors standard. I just had to show that one reason for the termination was related to the discrimination. We had someone, for example, who allegedly sleeping on the job a lot, but she also reported discrimination and they fired her. There was risk there if what was for the sleeping and what was for the retaliation. Now our state law is the same level as federal law. So they really are similar, but we're just pulling from different resources. If I make a legal memo I sent to the EEOC investigator, it only has federal law because that's all they care about.
Katya Valasek:
At these various stages, what are you doing on behalf of your client? What sort of information are you trying to gather to serve your client's best interests?
Paige Sparks:
The mediation can serve several purposes. First, it'll give my client a little taste of what the rest of the case can be like if we don't resolve it because they're eventually going to get their deposition taken. They're eventually going to have to go face who they're accusing and get cross-examined and those things start. Some of my clients, once they experience mediation, they're like, “I don't want this case filed. I don't want to go through this anymore. That was brutal.” Mediations could be brutal, especially if they go all day. It's also sometimes therapeutic, I think, for them. They get to tell their story. They get to be heard. It's a time where we can ask questions that they either have to answer or the mediation stops. Sometimes that'll be good process for them and it'll prime them and I can be like, okay, the mediation was the easy part. Now we have to get ready for the rest once we file the lawsuit.
Katya Valasek:
What are your conversations like with opposing counsel throughout this process?
Paige Sparks:
My conversations with opposing counsel really depend on who opposing counsel is. I match the energy. So if you're nice and respectful and professional to me, I will do the same to you. You have some opposing counsel that'll come in guns blazing and old school, try to blow me out of the water from the beginning and I'll do the same thing to you if you do that to me.
Katya Valasek:
Did you always have that confidence to meet them with the aggressive energy or is that something you learned over time?
Paige Sparks:
No, I've gone to a lot of therapy to tone it down, actually. Over time though, I've learned to be a little more strategic with it, a little more professional with it, which usually works out better for me, especially if they're losing their cool. But I've just always been that way. I'm naturally mean, I'm naturally a little crazy, and my therapist says that's the only time I can be mean is when it's on behalf of my client.
Katya Valasek:
That is really good permission to get from a therapist. How do conversations after you decide to file a case differ from the conversations that you have before mediation?
Paige Sparks:
I try to have full disclosure with my clients right when it's filed, kind of like a high-level view of the timeline of what this will look like so they know how much time it might take, our damages are capped so they're not going to get $20 million in any reality. I try to tell them that up front just so to manage expectations and that way no one's mad at me down the road. I tell them that the entire time. So my conversations don't really change with mediation because if I take on a case, I believe in it. And I always tell my clients, I'll take it as far as you want to take it. You're the one rejecting the money, you're the one rejecting offers, and it's up to you. If you want to settle your case for 500 bucks and I say don't do that, it's up to you. If you want to settle your case for $200,000 and I tell you we're never going to see that, but you're okay maybe losing, kind of hoping for that, it's up to you. My conversations don't really change because I try to start that early on just to manage those expectations and keep a good relationship at the start.
Katya Valasek:
So something your followers on social media know is that you have ADHD, which is one of the invisible impairments that employers must provide reasonable accommodations for. In your case, your healthcare professional figured out that you had it once you were already in practice. How did that come about?
Paige Sparks:
I actually first started wondering if I had ADHD during the pandemic. That was when I first got introduced to TikTok and I was scrolling and the For You page will send you things that it thinks you might like or might be relevant to you. I was getting a lot of videos that were like, if you do this, talk with your doctor, you might have ADHD. It was a lot of little things like time management issues, like I have no concept of time. I have time blindness. It was just a lot of little things that got me started asking questions and that's what kind of opened the door to me finally finding out. And everything made sense because I was like, this makes sense why I can't focus or I felt better. I'm like, it's not me. I'm not an idiot. It's ADHD.
Katya Valasek:
That algorithm is really creepy sometimes how it's able to identify things before we know we should be interested in them. What changed for you after the diagnosis?
Paige Sparks:
After I found out I had ADHD, I was a lot nicer to myself and gave myself a little more grace because I know it's not me being a slacker. Sometimes I'll really be trying my best and I still can't focus and I have to do something to redirect and then come back to that task. So I came up with little life hacks to kind of make the ADHD work for me because sometimes it's great. I can use it to multitask or think about multiple things at once when we're in trial or something, but I also come up with tips. I have to set a timer for things because of my time blindness. I set alarms for the whole day of when I'm supposed to move to the next thing. Once I found out, I just quit beating myself up for things and I just started implementing things to work with it.
Katya Valasek:
How did your diagnosis impact your interaction with your clients?
Paige Sparks:
I'm really bad at interrupting people. That's something that's common with ADHD people because we can get impulsive to where if they're saying something and I'll interrupt to ask my next thing, so I don't forget because if I don't get it out, it's gone. Once I found out and again started using better techniques to help manage that, it changed the way I take notes. I write down my questions while I'm active listening so I don't forget. Then I'm not rude, and interrupt, so to not be perceived as rude. They don't lose their train of thought and I also don't forget and will come back to what I need to know. I know it sounds simple and easy, but even little things like that have changed how I interact with my clients to where I'm not interrupting or talking over them.
Katya Valasek:
I would assume that technique is also helpful with opposing counsel or judges and mediators as well.
Paige Sparks:
Yeah, especially with judges when you really don't want to be perceived as disrespectful or rude. I just write everything down that way I don't forget and then I can come back to it.
Katya Valasek:
I would imagine that for lots of people who are thinking about going to law school or becoming a lawyer that have neurodiversity impacting their lives, hearing you talk about your ADHD can be encouraging. Do you hear from people that tell you that the stories you're sharing is making them feel more confident about pursuing a career as a lawyer?
Paige Sparks:
It makes my day when people reach out and say things like that because that's why I'm so open about it. I wish I had had someone that was like, it's okay if your grades aren't well, if you're doing your best or like if you can't get through your case reading, it's not something that's wrong with you. You just consume knowledge differently. And so that's part of the reason I'm so open and I'll talk about not only that, but like my grades were terrible in law school and everyone's usually really secretive about that. I don't care because I needed to hear that from someone at the time, and so I'm just open and talking about everything but it makes my day when I get feedback like that.