Happy Thanksgiving! What are lawyers thankful for?

Katya Valasek:

What are lawyers thankful for? In true lawyer fashion, I am confident when I say it depends. But I think we can learn a lot from the many different answers we received to everyone's least favorite Thanksgiving question. Today's episode is something I came up with when I first joined Kyle as co-host of I Am The Law. We spend a lot of time talking to lawyers about what they do and the impact their work can have on their clients. But I was curious to know more about the impact their jobs have on them.

Kyle McEntee:

Yeah, everyone has their own why. And despite my annoyance with the question when I have to answer it, I do like hearing other people's answers. So, as we interviewed our guests, we asked them some questions to get them warmed up, including why are you thankful for your job? Or at least I tried to. I kind of struggled to remember to ask on more than one occasion.

Katya Valasek:

Well, because of my gentle prodding to remind you to ask the question, we have a series of answers from which some themes definitely began to emerge. Most importantly, that a lot of the lawyers we talked to are fulfilled by the work they do. One of the reasons our guests told us they were thankful for their job was the opportunity to help people.

We heard the sentiment from Jenn Russoniello, Linsey Gleason, Hannah Wagner, and Matt Skinner. Before we play the clips, we'll give the briefest of backgrounds on each person, including their episode number and release date. Note that Apple numbers, but Spotify does not. You can also find all these episodes and more on lawhub.org. Hopefully, all episodes are tagged by practice area, workplace setting, and more. Okay, so onward.

Jenn is a family law litigator at a small law firm. We released her episode, episode 81, on April 22nd, 2024.

Jenn Russoniello:

I am thankful for my job because I get to learn about a lot of different things every day and I get to meet a lot of new people. And overall, I feel while my work sometimes can seem like it's all bad, and I don't know a better way to say that. There are really moments where I see people come out of divorce or come out of these situations and they find their voice. And that is what I'm most thankful for. And in a lot of consultations when people sit here and they talk to me about their marriages and their children and their families, I tell them that they will come out on the other side. And it is very rewarding to see that happen.

Katya Valasek:

And Linsey is an estate planning lawyer at a large regional firm. Her episode aired on August 28th, 2023, which was episode 57.

Linsey Gleason:

The thing that I'm most thankful about in my career is knowing that I'm doing important work that matters to people. I'm helping clients go through some of the most difficult things that they've ever had to experience. And it's really rewarding to help relieve some of that burden and some of the fear and anxiety. So I just like, I like knowing that they feel better when they leave my office.

Kyle McEntee:

And Hannah is a legal aid lawyer. We released her episode on April Fool's Day this year, 2024, for our 80th episode.

Hannah Wagner:

There are so many reasons I'm thankful for my job. I get to do what I've always wanted to do, which is provide assistance to folks who cannot afford it, to kind of give a voice to those who are forced to be voiceless. So that is the number one reason. But the other is I am surrounded by a lot of amazing people who are doing this job as well, and their knowledge and support has been just amazing.

Kyle McEntee:

Matt is a public defender who we featured on episode 73 on January 29th, 2024.

Matt Skinner:

I'm very thankful for my job because it's, first off, it was my quote unquote dream job. It's kind of weird saying now because I do it every day, but I'm very fortunate because I get to interact with so many people every day. It's my favorite part of the job. It makes it really enjoyable to meet new clients and help them. And I'm just very fortunate that instead of sitting in an office all day, I get to interact with people and, you know, be a part of their lives for better or for worse, to be honest. So that's why I'm very fortunate to do what I do.

Kyle McEntee:

I like that Jenn and Linsey's quotes show us that even when you're doing difficult and emotional work, you can still find satisfaction. And that satisfaction is not in spite of their work, but because of it. Again, Jenn is a family law litigator, so she is not only dealing with really heavy issues, but she's assisting a client who cannot resolve these heavy issues without a trial.

Katya Valasek:

And Linsey is a trust and estates lawyer. Estate planning is not an easy topic to discuss for clients. Lindsay mentions their fear and anxiety. And it's not surprising, really. You're either helping someone plan for their death or helping surviving family members after someone has passed. Both situations that are full of many emotions.

Kyle McEntee:

Hannah and Matt not only mention helping people, but they also mention people that help them. For Matt, he loves the fact that he can get out of his office and work with or on behalf of his clients.

Katya Valasek:

And while Hannah fulfilled her dream of helping those who cannot afford legal help, she is also buoyed by the people she works with at Legal Aid.

Kyle McEntee:

At different times in your career, it can get lonely. And the support of just a few people around you can give you the burst that you need to carry on. And as we've heard from some of our other guests, Jessica Colon, Alan Carlson, and Veronique Richardson, the reason they are thankful for their job is their colleagues. Jessica manages the legal operations and compliance programs at a pharma company. Her episode was number 75, and we released it on February 19th, 2024.

Jessica Colon:

Really good mentors. A handful of folks who have become friends that were advocates when I couldn't be in the room. And it's really important to recognize when you have those. The blessing of having a really good team. And I've been very fortunate, all the companies I've worked at, I've always had an amazing team to work with. And a really clear sense of the direction you want to go in, which may not always be about climbing the ladder. It may be about learning more about a particular thing or doing something very, I'm going to say, interesting to you, which may not be the traditional for anyone else. And that's okay. Be really comfortable with that because my career is peppered with things I've done that everybody thought was crazy, but they were awesome.

Kyle McEntee:

Alan is a patent lawyer at a large firm. He was on episode 72 on January 22nd, 2024.

Alan Carlson:

I have a job that I enjoy. I enjoy who I work with and I get satisfaction out of the projects I complete. And I find that to be rare, particularly when you have just started your job. Sometimes the satisfaction payoff or what have you comes later. But I find that I'm excited to come to work, excited to do the work I'm doing, and I enjoy the people I work with. So I've always considered myself very fortunate to have those qualities attached to my job.

Katya Valasek:

Veronique is at a small firm and specializes in water rights and economic development for tribal entities and tribal members. We featured her on episode 83, released on May 6th, 2024.

Veronique Richardson:

I have an awesome law firm here in Albuquerque, New Mexico, with a very diverse group of attorneys. We all kind of came from different backgrounds, but at the core value, we have a lot of similar values and we're able to work collaboratively on behalf of a lot of our clients, both tribal governments, Indian individuals, or individuals doing business in Indian country because of those shared values.

Katya Valasek:

Like Hannah, Jessica feels fortunate for the mentors she's had and for the members of her team. Jessica gives us some great examples of how supportive colleagues can really make someone enjoy the work that they do. I know that has certainly been the case for me throughout my career.

Kyle McEntee:

Unlike almost all of our guests, Alan was early on in his career when we spoke with him, and he talks about how collaboration makes him excited for work. But it's not all rosy, which he fully admits. He acknowledges that you don't always enjoy the work or the people you're working with, and that's fine.

Katya Valasek:

Although Hannah and Jessica didn't say it as part of their answers, if you listen to their episodes, you'll hear how, like Veronique, working with people who have shared values or a shared mission makes a difference when you're stressed or working too many hours. Veronique also mentioned that she is thankful for the impact her job has on others.

Veronique Richardson:

We're a hundred percent Native American owned and about half of our attorneys here are also Native American. And so also super lucky in the field of Indian law to have such a group of Native Americans who are smart and love to serve Indian countries. So super grateful for that. Also the founding partners of the firm had a really unique vision to serve Indian country and to have an Indian owned law firm and to see that come to fruition has been a pretty amazing journey as well. All around, super lucky to be where I am and in the position I'm in.

Kyle McEntee:

And honestly, that goes without saying for a lot of the lawyers we've interviewed, it's a service profession. That service looks different based on your client types or practice areas or workplace setting. But at the core, client service is the name of the game. It keeps the lights on financially in a corny sense. We've heard this explicitly from some of our other guests too. J.R. Thomas, Pilar Thomas.

Katya Valasek:

No relation.

Kyle McEntee:

…and Judge Elizabeth Rohl all were quick to mention their communities when asked why they were thankful for their jobs. J.R. is a lawyer for a community services nonprofit. We featured him on episode 82 on April 29th, 2024.

J.R. Thomas:

I am thankful for the opportunity to work with people that are so diverse for me that come from so many different backgrounds and that I get to see the struggles that people deal with and things that a lot of other people, including myself, may take for granted. I see how it impacts certain people's lives. And I'm really thankful for that because it's caused a mindset shift in how I practice and in personal areas of my life as well.

Kyle McEntee:

Pilar works for a large firm doing tribal energy and economic development. She was on episode 74 on February 5th, 2024.

Pilar Thomas:

The immense opportunities that I've had to try different areas of law within Indian law and the opportunities I've been given by the federal government to represent them, by my own tribal government, and now by my clients to assist them with their clean energy development and with the other economic development challenges that they have.

Katya Valasek:

Judge Rohl is a trial court judge in a one-judge county. Her episode, number 79, aired on March 25th, 2024.

Judge Rohl:

I am thankful for the ability to be a part of people's lives and make decisions that impact their day-to-day life, whether some are good, some are bad, but it's really an opportunity to be involved with the community that I grew up in and be able to make decisions that will impact people as they live their daily life.

Katya Valasek:

I think that when you see lawyers portrayed in pop culture, there's so much focus on the work that they do in the office or in the courtroom or otherwise interacting with other lawyers, whether they're on the same side or not. It's easy to forget that the work that lawyers do impacts the communities where they live too.

Kyle McEntee:

Worth pointing out that not all law jobs are super social. We heard from two patent lawyers in episode 99, released on October 14th, 2024, whose particular practices involve minimal interaction. Plenty of good legal work gets done in an office with limited interaction, though it's kind of tough to avoid people altogether if you're representing a client or have a boss to report to.

Katya Valasek:

Also, it's tough to deny that things like problem-solving are just a bit easier when you collaborate, even if you can sometimes get a lot done alone, which is what Chukwukpee Nzegwu and Ed Winkofsky mentioned when we asked them the thankful question. Chukwukpee does commercial litigation at a large firm. His episode was number 54 and was released on May 30th, 2023. And it was my very first episode as part of the I Am The Law team.

Chukwukpee Nzegwu:

I'm really thankful for the opportunities that I've had to apply really strong critical thinking skills to complex problems that can't always be solved neatly in a box. But by working with others in a collaborative method, I've been able to give really, you know, sometimes bad ideas, sometimes great ideas. And it's been enjoyable to be in that space where my opinion is valued and it's asked.

Katya Valasek:

Ed is a gaming industry lawyer at a large firm. Episode number 77 came out on March 11th, 2024.

Ed Winkofsky:

I am thankful for my job, I think, for three reasons. One is it's a hard job. And I think having the opportunity to work hard is something that I appreciate. Two, I like solving problems. And I think, by and large, that's what my job is, to help people solve problems. And I like that. And three, I have three children and a mortgage. And without my job, raising those children and paying that mortgage would be more challenging.

Kyle McEntee:

Those of us who thought logic games on the LSAT were fun understand what Chukwukpee means when he talks about the being thankful to get to tackle outside-of-the-box issues.

Katya Valasek:

Ed also talks about problem solving and helping his clients with their problems. He also brings up something that other guests mentioned but didn't want to include in their recorded answers. And that's the money he makes, which honestly is an important part of anyone's job.

I'm certainly thankful for the life I'm able to live because of my job.

Kyle McEntee:

And I'm thankful Ed said what we know a lot of people are thinking. People consider debt when choosing where to attend law school and also when choosing where to work, both practice area and job type. So compensation is no surprise.

But as some of our guests shared with us, there are sometimes unexpected ways people find their jobs fulfilling, like Raffi Melkonian and Jennifer Slinsky. Raffi is an appellate lawyer who we featured on episode 86 on May 27, 2024.

Raffi Melkonian:

I get to read and write and argue to courts every day at my job. And that is something I never thought I was going to be able to do when I was in law school. So that's really the thing that makes my job special and all the long hours we all work tolerable.

Kyle McEntee:

Jennifer manages a patent portfolio at a university. Her episode, number 88, came out on June 10, 2024.

Jennifer Slinskey:

Where I work now, it wasn't really anywhere that I knew about or anticipated when I went to law school. And what I get to do and the process of what I get to see as far as inventions from cradle to getting it out there to commercialization is just well beyond what I had initially anticipated as a patent attorney.

Katya Valasek:

What I like about their comments is, like me, they're doing something they didn't think possible or couldn't even envision while in law school.

Kyle McEntee:

And something that many law students don't expect is that a lawyer often has flexibility when it comes to their work schedules. You definitely don't get that impression from TV, books, and movies. But that's what Mia Getlin, Mike Morse, and Ludmila Kasulke told us they were thankful for. Mia specializes in the state legal cannabis industry. Her episode aired on September 25th, 2023 and was number 61.

Mia Getlin:

Well, specifically to the type of law I practice and the part of the country in which I practice it, it gives me the ability to actually have work-life balance as an attorney and to form a kind of unique community within the industry I serve. And that's, in addition to being very good to my career, that community is really a nice thing.

Katya Valasek:

Mike owns a mammoth personal injury firm. We released episode 91 on July 15th, 2024.

Mike Morse:

I am thankful for my job because it allows me to have amazing freedoms that I wouldn't have if I wasn't doing what I do. I get to help people all day, which is amazing. I have a wonderful team of over 200 that I love working with. And owning your own firm like this gives me the freedom to travel the world and spend time with my family and do exactly what I want to do.

Katya Valasek:

Ludmilla is a lawyer lobbyist in DC. Episode 87 aired on June 3rd, 2024.

Ludmilla Kasulke:

I have found it possible to have that balance, to have that family. It's both how I've developed my practice. It's where I am in my life right now. I think when I was a junior associate, I definitely pulled an all-nighter or two every once in a while, but I have found that I have been able to sort of manage this career as a career and not just an all-consuming, I don't see my friends, I don't eat meals anywhere but at my desk. That's not what I've lived at really at all.

Katya Valasek:

Mia and Mike both own their own businesses. Ludmilla is a partner at a large firm, which can be similar to owning a business, but it's also meaningfully different. And all three are thankful that they have the flexibility to schedule things like travel and to find a work-life balance that works for them. And again, Mia mentions the importance of the community she works in.

Kyle McEntee:

Okay, so speaking of community, I do want to acknowledge a key contributor to our podcast to take us home. Bo helps Katya and I produce the show week in, week out, and we are so, so very thankful for him.

Katya Valasek:

Bo makes sure we sound good and helps us all troubleshoot our technical difficulties, difficulties I tend to have more often than the average podcast co-host. And he's integral in ensuring that we are answering questions that a non-lawyer may have, since Bo did not go to law school like Kyle and I did.

Kyle McEntee:

All right, so Katya, you have one final quote for us.

Katya Valasek:

Yes. This last quote, I think, really summarizes what everyone we've heard from today and over the course of the podcast has been saying, though the specifics are slightly different for everyone. Probably the fact that I really like my job.

Donata Stroink-Skillrud:

I personally really enjoy it, and I'm very thankful that that's the case.

Kyle McEntee:

That was Donata Stroink-Skillrud, a legal engineer at her own legal tech company. You can find her on episode 84 from May 13th, 2024.

Katya Valasek:

So as we wrap up this episode, I just want to say, for the record, that I am thankful, Kyle, that you joined me on this journey of asking our guests the most annoying Thanksgiving question of all time.